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  1. #1
    הצטרף בתאריך
    15.03.2007
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    8
    Please, forgive me if I write in english, but I'm italian.
    Could someone explain me why shayze kicked me four times ten minutes ago if I had 150ms retard?
    You say 200 ms is maximum...
    And could someone explain me, with tecnical arguments, how can my retard affect other player?
    I need technical argument, bacause (forgive me for this...) I'm informatic engineer..
    And (forgive me for the last time) can you reply in english?
    ciax
    Nico
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  2. #2
    הצטרף בתאריך
    13.01.2007
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    Well, it's very simple.
    the vgames servers were opened especially for the israeli gamers who play F.E.A.R.
    in one of the topics, there has been an arguement about the maximum allowed ping.
    some people said that the maximum allowed should be between 100 to 200.
    I hope this helped you enough...
    אומרים שהדרך לליבו של גבר עוברת דרך קיבתו. אבל במקרה שלי, זה לא נכון; הדרך לליבי היא דרך דאנק מימז.
    CRISS is my name and madness is my game
    ערוץ YTG
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    שקט ווקי!
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  3. #3
    הצטרף בתאריך
    12.01.2007
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    Interesting how you managed to register without any knowledge in Hebrew
    Anyhow, sometimes, when there are allot of people, if there is a lag, it is needed to kick even people with 150 ping, ofcourse we tell you before, and ask you to lower it somehow, either by cenceling downloads or exiting msn/icq, if you cant lower it, sorry but you will be kindly asked to leave for the sake of the other players.
    גלרייה :ם
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  4. #4
    הצטרף בתאריך
    16.10.2006
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    808
    Hello, I'm assuming you are Nickluck_ITA.
    Firstly, I confirm everything you say, I did kick you several times on the server, when you only had ping rates of 150-180 and not 200.
    However, when Vgames community members complain about lags, I as admin am committed to try and do something about it, hence, kicking people with slightly lower than the bar pings.
    While I regret the necessity involved, I am not sorry I kicked you or any of the other five high pingers in the server at the time, after I finished doing it the server ran way smoother and we all had an enjoyable game.

    I hope they start more servers closer to you!

    [vg]Shayze
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  5. #5
    הצטרף בתאריך
    15.03.2007
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    8
    I could register because I admin a site, so I can move (a little) blindly in forums.
    I hope someone can explain me (if he has a minimum knowledge) how can high pings lag server.
    I'm sure server goes faster when kicking, but only because managing more player requires an higher load on CPU (and bandwidth).
    Try kicking low ping player next time and you'll see same behavior on server.
    If you wanna a smoother play, limit server to 12 or 10 player. (I don't ask you to buy a bigger server or more bandwidth, obviously).
    A technical explanation is appreciated, not "I know it's that way".
    Sorry if I insist, but I hate stupid reason for stupid thinks...
    Thanks
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  6. #6
    הצטרף בתאריך
    26.10.2006
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    In multiplayer online video games, ping refers to the network latency seen between a player's computer, called a client, and the game server (or another client). This could be reported as an averaged time in milliseconds, or more generally as "low ping" or "high ping". This usage is common with players of a variety of FPS and RTS games. In most cases, having a low ping is desirable because lower latency provides smoother gameplay by allowing more frequent updates of game data. In some cases, though, games seem to give unfair advantage to high-ping users, as in some iterations of the Half-Life engine. Other players see the high ping player's character(s) skip around, making it hard to judge where the character is exactly.

    In this sense, ping is conflated with lag – one may "lag out" due to high ping. Servers may disconnect a client if the connection is too bad, or the client may lose the connection itself.

    Taken from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ping_%28video_games%29
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  7. #7
    הצטרף בתאריך
    15.03.2007
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    8
    Uhm, what you put in evidence is an advantage (or disadvantage) related to a player and HIS ping, not others' ping.
    Subsequent part (about "skipping") is related to a genarally bad connection: don't forget UDP connection is used, so a bad connection gives high ping and packet loss (the real reason of "skipping"). If connection is good, but only have high latency, server doesn't have to wait for packet and can guarantee smooth play.
    The only consequence is that if I have high ping, i'll see you later, I'll fire where you're no more and server will know I've fired too late, probably when I'm died...
    Or, generally explained in what you put in red, smoother gameplay. Never noticed low ping player have an higher kill ratio?
    But, I'm sure, if there's no packet loss, smooth play is guaranteed.
    So, please, distinguish "lag" from "high ping".
    Any other objection?
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  8. #8
    הצטרף בתאריך
    01.11.2006
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    i certainly cant consider myself as a computer expert, what i think is what seems logical to me.
    as i see it, once the server has problems communicating with one of the clients connected to it (so called "lags") it messes up the entire information flow throughout the server. i fully understand your argument about it disturbing only the specific client's connection, but you utterly ignore the fact that all of that player's information (not just TO the client, but also FROM it) reaches the server with a certain delay (lag) and in an action packed game like FEAR the fact you see people when they aren't there makes them see you hop around like a baby on exta. so when one player has a high ping all the information about that player takes time to reach the rest of the clients.
    so yes, ping does cause lag. you said it yourself: "The only consequence is that if I have high ping, i'll see you later, I'll fire where you're no more and server will know I've fired too late, probably when I'm died...". if thats not lag, i dont know what IS.
    oh, and ill be happy to be informed if i am wrong in any way. you seem to talk like you know the subject so i take it you can specify whats wrong with my assumptions.



    this is HEALTHY cough blood
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  9. #9
    הצטרף בתאריך
    16.10.2006
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    808
    Nick, what you say is mostly accurate.
    However, F.E.A.R Combat has an exceptionally nasty server code and it seems that it 'transfers' ping around. I.E. when there are laggers on the server you won't see them skip around, but rather you, yourself will have lag and frame-rate drops.
    Why? I don't know, maybe because it's a free game and the developers didn't want to put in too much time in bug-fixing, maybe just because of the nature of the game engine, it can be anything.
    Fact is, when high pingers connect, other people with low pings are starting to experience lags, and we try to make sure our players (I.E. Israelis, those with very low pings) Have the best possible game experience.

    Thank you.
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  10. #10
    הצטרף בתאריך
    01.11.2006
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    actually, i was talking about past experiences... i witnessed other people hop around, and usually when i forget my Utorrent or something my friends say im jumping all over the place when all i see is the normal stuff.



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  11. #11
    הצטרף בתאריך
    15.03.2007
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    8
    נכתב במקור על ידי Tepik
    i certainly cant consider myself as a computer expert, what i think is what seems logical to me.
    as i see it, once the server has problems communicating with one of the clients connected to it (so called "lags") it messes up the entire information flow throughout the server. i fully understand your argument about it disturbing only the specific client's connection, but you utterly ignore the fact that all of that player's information (not just TO the client, but also FROM it) reaches the server with a certain delay (lag) and in an action packed game like FEAR the fact you see people when they aren't there makes them see you hop around like a baby on exta. so when one player has a high ping all the information about that player takes time to reach the rest of the clients.
    so yes, ping does cause lag. you said it yourself: "The only consequence is that if I have high ping, i'll see you later, I'll fire where you're no more and server will know I've fired too late, probably when I'm died...". if thats not lag, i dont know what IS.
    oh, and ill be happy to be informed if i am wrong in any way. you seem to talk like you know the subject so i take it you can specify whats wrong with my assumptions.
    The error in this argumentation is that you do not connect to oters player directly, but through server.
    So what does count in this game is playr position considered by server.
    Server says "nickluck is here", 10 ms after your client shows my character in that position, you fire on me, after 10 ms it receives your "firing" and tells me what you've done. 200 ms I know you're firing on me, but in this 200 ms you can continue firing and kill me without i could know, because I haven't sayd server "i move", so server consider I'm still in that position.
    This seems to me only an advantage for low pingers.
    I don't say it's wrong that laggers (NOT HIGH PINGERS!!!) make game slower, but I say high ping not always mean lag.
    Me too experienced lag, but not with every high ping player.
    You can recognize them by their "skipping" when running. And I see low ping lagging too.
    I make a tipical italian example: here we have ADSL lines, all setted on "interleaved" mode (with high pings) and some setted in "fast" mode (with low ping), but fast mode excludes packet control, so packets can be received with error and cause lag.
    So you can understand how low ping too can cause lags.
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  12. #12
    הצטרף בתאריך
    01.11.2006
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    erm... all you did was quote me, ignore my arguments completely and then say the exact same thing you said before with the edition of a lot of irrelevent details about italy's wierd internet connections.
    ill appreciate you actually READING my comment and responding to what i said.



    this is HEALTHY cough blood
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  13. #13
    הצטרף בתאריך
    16.10.2006
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    808
    נכתב במקור על ידי Tepik
    erm... all you did was quote me, ignore my arguments completely and then say the exact same thing you said before with the edition of a lot of irrelevent details about italy's wierd internet connections.
    ill appreciate you actually READING my comment and responding to what i said.
    *Smashes his spear into his shield* Auuu! Go Tepik
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  14. #14
    הצטרף בתאריך
    15.03.2007
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    8
    נכתב במקור על ידי Tepik
    erm... all you did was quote me, ignore my arguments completely and then say the exact same thing you said before with the edition of a lot of irrelevent details about italy's wierd internet connections.
    ill appreciate you actually READING my comment and responding to what i said.

    You didn't read my response:
    The error in this argumentation is that you do not connect to others player directly, but through server.
    I can't say anything more about.
    All explanation of your wrong argumentation is there (and clarified after...)
    Don't know how you can't understand difference it makes connecting players directly or through server.
    I'll try to explain it again.
    player's information (not just TO the client, but also FROM it) reaches the server with a certain delay (lag) and in an action packed game like FEAR the fact you see people when they aren't there makes them see you hop around like a baby on exta

    First error: you confuse LAG with DELAY. I wrote differences two times, but you didn't understand
    so when one player has a high ping all the information about that player takes time to reach the rest of the clients.

    It's true, but I wrote ". So what does count in this game is player position considered by server." and you didn't read neither this, neither the example after this...
    so yes, ping does cause lag
    Again: lag and high ping are not always related, so I did a little example to make easier to you to understand "I make a tipical italian example: here we have ADSL lines, all setted on "interleaved" mode (with high pings) and some setted in "fast" mode (with low ping), but fast mode excludes packet control, so packets can be received with error and cause lag.", but you didn't understand saying "edition of a lot of irrelevent details about italy's wierd internet connections"
    if thats not lag, i dont know what IS.
    I noticed you can't understand what lag is, please try reading again differences I wrote.
    I'm sorry, but I can't do more.
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  15. #15
    הצטרף בתאריך
    16.10.2006
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    808
    Dear Nick. While you may feel you've properly addressed the arguments of Tepik, you have most definatly not addressed my own.
    Normally, high ping would hurt only the player-side in leaps and glitches, however, because of faulty game architecture or something in server configuration, high pingers in FEAR /always/ affect low-pingers' gameplay, slowing up the game for everyone.

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  16. #16
    הצטרף בתאריך
    01.11.2006
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    well, i have just read all your posts again.
    i see my reference to lag as another name for "delay" was so blasphemous (thank you, vgames's spelling corrector. too bad you cant spell "vgames" without a space...) in your eyes that it made you repeat yourself yet again, so ill stop.
    all i tried to say was that if im connected to you by a server, even if i get information from the server fast, the fact that YOUR information get to server with DELAY causes it to reach ME with DELAY too. rule of transport or something



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  17. #17
    הצטרף בתאריך
    15.03.2007
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    8
    נכתב במקור על ידי Shayze
    Dear Nick. While you may feel you've properly addressed the arguments of Tepik, you have most definatly not addressed my own.
    Normally, high ping would hurt only the player-side in leaps and glitches, however, because of faulty game architecture or something in server configuration, high pingers in FEAR /always/ affect low-pingers' gameplay, slowing up the game for everyone.

    It should have been put a bug on purpose to make appen what you say.
    I don't know if it's because of you server (maybe too busy), but I play on "prison city" server with all >200ms players and notice no lag, even with 12 players
    .
    On your server, if more than 10 players, I notice slowness and a drop on my frame-rate.
    This happens (to me, I don't know if any other noticed) after your server move months ago. In fact sometimes I leave on my own to switch on faster servers.
    Please, try playing on "prison city", see how fast it is, and ask their admin how they guarantee this smooth play. But I'm sure without kicking anyone.
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  18. #18
    הצטרף בתאריך
    15.03.2007
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    8
    נכתב במקור על ידי Tepik
    well, i have just read all your posts again.
    i see my reference to lag as another name for "delay" was so blasphemous (thank you, vgames's spelling corrector. too bad you cant spell "vgames" without a space...) in your eyes that it made you repeat yourself yet again, so ill stop.
    all i tried to say was that if im connected to you by a server, even if i get information from the server fast, the fact that YOUR information get to server with DELAY causes it to reach ME with DELAY too. rule of transport or something


    I'll try again to make understand you. It's impossible you can't understand..
    Let's assume I have 1 hour delay and you 0 ms delay.
    Server spawns me in x,y position, you see me at x,y position, you fire on x,y position, server recives your firing on x,y position, server doesn't know I'm moving (it will know 1 hour after), will assume I'm still in x,y position and will say "tepik killed nickluck". After 1 hour I'll know I'm died. So, where's my delay influence in your firing???? Is it an YOUR advantage?
    More clear?

    Talking again about lag, it is a consequences of UDP, that allows dropped packet and non-subsequent packet order receipt. There is another high ping relation with lag: if packet have to make too many hops with different routing, they should be received in wrong order, making me appear in x,y position, x+2,y, than x+1,y, x+3,y etc, making me "jumping" around. But , again, NOT ALWAYS.
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  19. #19
    הצטרף בתאריך
    01.11.2006
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    stop assuming id don't understand you please... i understood what you said, im just saying that i believe you are wrong from past expreience, when shooting at laggers they DONT get hit. i see your point, saw it all along, but in reality what actually happens is that if i shoot at a lagger i usually miss.
    dunno why. maybe its just me, but thats what happens.



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  20. #20
    הצטרף בתאריך
    12.01.2007
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    Well, fact is, people with high ping on FEAR, teleport all around the place, so I cant really hit them, sometimes the lag is so bad they get stuck walking in the same spot, I shot and they die, also, you can notice when someone has a huge ping, suddenly other peoples ping raise up, I don't know why it really happens, I don't care either, it just does and we have to handle it to insure the rest of the players enjoy.
    Yes, also sometimes this lag/teleport happens when the server is full.. well.. it happened, so we need to restart the server, so gotta kick anyway.
    Because of FEAR's code, or our server, it still happens, and we have to take care of it.
    As for "prison city", never saw a server named like that.. but i never had any lag.. well I did before the server got restarted, so I don't have any problems.
    גלרייה :ם
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